Thai culture of Denial - the Reality

I think the Thais have a culture of denial. It is not simply hypocrisy or two-facedness, which is common in many countries- if there is some negative attribute which they wish to hide, they seem compelled not only to cover it up but to STRONGLY, VOCALLY deny it. This goes for so-called "Thai values" as well as individual character. For example, [I tried to put these on the same lines in a parallel fashion but this darn editor keeps deleting the formatting spaces I put in!]

THAI VALUES:
Thais are sexually conservative.
Thais are socially conservative.
Thais are calm and cool.

REALITIES:
Everone screws like rabbits.
Everyone has affairs.
Thais have terribly emotional storms.

PERSONAL STATEMENTS
I don't have many dates.
I don't go there.
I'm not materialistic.
Up to you!
I don't tell you lies!

REALITIES
I'm a slut.
It's my favorite place.
Show me the money!
I want it my way!
I'm a pathological liar!


Time after time, when I examine what my Thai friends/acquaintances take so much trouble to deny, I find the truth by reversing their denials. It's a technique I recommend, somewhat cynically.

"Steven"

Understanding Your Thai Bf/Gf - The dishonesty thing seems endemic to Thailand

I've been living here for a few years, and I was a tourist previously. It's a whole different ball game living and working here, and you learn a lot- some things you might not really want to know.

The age difference is not by itself an issue- because a lot of the guys here are REALLY looking for someone older (I've been told several times I'm too young!) But it does mean that personality, expectations, etc. are different. And if you expect anyone under 25 in Thailand to be monogamous you're just fooling yourself.

The dishonesty thing seems endemic to Thailand- I'm not afraid to say it. They don't LOOK at it as lying, and there are a lot of "cultural coping mechanisms" to disguise it from themselves as lying, but basically, it's lying. The best ones will merely try hard to avoid expressing things they'd rather not express, and if you read between the lines to see what they're saying and don't pressure them to lose face, you can get the information you want without upsetting anyone.

For example, I started dating a guy recently and I almost immediately realized there was a financial problem- the guy had more money than he should have for his occupation/age. I approached it somewhat indirectly (after I saw he had the compaq portable computer!) and told him there were some things I would have to know about him if we were going to get serious, and did he mind if we discussed them- and he replied that it would be better if we didn't talk about those things- which gave me my answer and avoided any direct embarrassment. We're still friends and still date, but I don't let myself get too serious with him, and I'm grateful for his relative "honesty."

I've heard some amazing stories here, though, and there are both real stinkers and real angels out there.

"Steven"

Living with a Thai Boy - My Experience

The first big crack in the relationship was Valentine's Day. He gave me some big lie about how he had to spend the evening with his friends because he'd already promised some time back (really? like over three months when we became boyfriends?) he'd have dinner with them. I wasn't buying it- 'cause I knew how important these romantic holidays are to the Thais, even the Western ones.

He DID come by in the morning and give me a nice framed photo of himself and some flowers, but it wasn't enough- I wanted his presence- and in the evening (which I spent alone at home in my apartment, far outside the Bangkok city limits) I couldn't reach him on his cellphone- it mysteriously malfunctioned [he later claimed battery failure] which it had a tendency to do when convenient for him.

Speaking of the mobile phones, they evolved considerably while I was dating him. He started off with a fairly expensive-looking Nokia model with a color screen and a slightly musical tone. Suddenly, one day he showed up with one of the top-of-the-line Panasonic phones (the big console-looking ones with built-in camera that can even do E-banking for you securely). How did he get the money (probably about 20,000B) for this? "I have a friend working at a store so I got a discount." Wrong answer!

To make matters worse, during this period he ALSO picked up a portable CD player to the tune of 10,000B including fancy rechargeable battery system, and fancy 3000B headphones. Finally, he LOST the expensive phone (left it in a cab)! So he got yet ANOTHER phone, to the tune of 8000K. Just one month later his friend broke that one, and he showed up with yet ANOTHER phone (with built-in camera again) that probably cost about 8000K.

As if all that weren't fishy enough, I noticed the following expenses, which he made no effort to hide from me:

1-2000B a month sent home to mother
500B a month life insurance policy (payable to mother)
Shares in TWO apartments running about 4-5000B a month
Expensive habits, like riding in taxis and eating out, seeing movies in theatres with his friends, drinking at bars (where he kept bottles in his name), etc.
Frequent purchase of trendy clothes and accessories- seemed for awhile like every day he had something new from MBK.

After a bit of calculation, I finally figured that he was spending over 50-60K a month during the time that I knew him (more than my salary!!!) And yet he was an unemployed student.... right.

Eventually, even my friends noticed that he was too rich to be telling the truth. Even the nice Thai man who introduced us told me he thought something was wrong- probably that O. was getting income from other farang. I knew I couldn't let things go on like this.

Why not? some may ask. Why not live in style on the money of a fairly well-off kept boy boyfriend who costs me little/nothing and even buys things for me? Why rock the boat?

The reason is O's first change in my life- I was truly, deeply falling in love with him, more so than I had ever been with any other partner. How was I going to feel if Mr. Moneybags from Switzerland showed up one day demanding that my cutie run off with him for years or forever? Emotionally, this was a losing proposition, and I had to find the truth or give him up.

"Steven"

I don't pay for the Thai Bf's Thai Wife and the Thai Bf's ThaiBf

One of the saddest types of stories I've heard from my friends here is about the couple which consisted of:

the farang
and his gay Thai boyfriend
and the Thai boyfriend's Thai wife
and the Thai boyfriend's Thai boyfriend

all living in the house which Jack built (but the boyfriend owns).

I tell every new boyfriend candidate (after a suitable period of time) this story, and emphasize to them that *I* will not be in the role of that farang. So far, the one guy who became my "official" boyfriend for awhile (my ex) didn't believe me [eventually found out he had 2 or 3 other farang plus maybe a Thai bf and one or two Thai girlfriends, too]. I added him to the story of what I don't put up with in serious boyfriends, for the benefit of future candidates. Remains to be seen if any of these candidates will understand I am serious from the start!!!


"Steven"

How To Avoid Questionable Characters While Dating Gay Guys In Thailand

How To Avoid Questionable Characters While Dating Gay Guys In Thailand

A Mostly Common Sense Approach

Meeting People

1. Stay out of the gogo bars.
This one should be pretty obvious. It's not impossible that you might meet a "real" boyfriend in a gogo bar, but it might as well be.

2. Stay out of Soi 4; oh heck, stay away from Silom/Suriwong/Patpong entirely.
Once again, why screw up your odds? Yes, there are some nice/real people going to Silom and so forth, including of course you, my gentle reader- but really....

3. Stay out of gay bars in general.
Excluding present company, I'm afraid that simply being in a gay bar in Thailand is unusual and rare for many real gay guys- they don't have the time or the money, or they want to avoid stigma.

4. Do not use Internet chat rooms or personals sites.
There are far too many butterflies, MBs, "students," "kept" types, and crazies on these sites to make them good places for finding a "real" candidate.

5. Do not consider people you meet in saunas or parks serious candidates.
Another obvious one. People don't go to saunas and parks looking for serious connections with others.

6. Do not consider students serious candidates.
Even though they're cute, even though they're young, even though they're horny and they love you- they're just not worth the trouble. No money, uncertain future, and difficult to track.

7. Do not consider the unemployed serious candidates.
Another obvious one. Anyone who is unemployed in Thailand needs a good explanation of how they manage to stay alive (or at least how they did before you started taking care of them). Why add to the list of troubles for yourself?

8. DO keep your eyes open in public for those who looking at you with interest.
There are many very friendly and lovely gay guys all around who will readily indicate interest in you. Yes, even you, with your pot belly and grandfatherly look- that's what some of them like. Learn to notice and respond to these signals- look around when you're on the train, on the street (except Silom), in malls, at grocery stores.

9. DO chat and be friendly with attractive people who are obviously already working.
Some Thais are quite shy. If they are cute and seem gay, why not try to take the initiative? And if they're working somewhere that you're shopping or have business, you have a perfect excuse for the interaction- and you know they have a job.

10. DO ask your Thai friends to introduce you to nice people.
You *do* have Thai friends, right? Get them to help you out- but in this case, beware of your responsibility. You don't want your friend to lose face if you turn out to be a jerk.

11. DO make Thai friends.
This is sort of a prerequisite to number 10. Not all gays that you contact will be interested in you that way- and you can only have one boyfriend, anyway. Keep some of the rest as friends.

12. DO go to gay-attractive events such as film events, art exhibitions, and the performing arts.
Another place to find like-minded people with enough money and leisure for taste.

13. DO try to meet Thai university teachers/workers (not students).
This solves the education/job/intelligence side of the equation from the start.

14. DO consider Thai-Chinese partners if you can.
While not to everyone's taste, and bringing along with them certain stereotypical weaknesses, all signs point to their being among the best choice for stable relationships between foreigners and Thai nationals.

"Steven"

Let's see... in Thailand there are moneyboys and there are moneyboys.

Let's see... in Thailand there are moneyboys and there are moneyboys.

The moneyboy signs are fairly easy:

1. Wildly expensive clothes, accessories (mobile!), a shoe fetish, on no visible means of support or something poorly paid (like waiter).
2. Not rich, but speaks excellent English
3. Not rich, but speaks of foreign trips
4. Asks you to pay the tab not only for him but also a cluster of other similarly attired young men who disappear after the meal's finished/the club's opened.
5. Asks for "taxi money" home [esp. 200-300B] when a bus would do

But there's another category of "kept boys" which are trickier. These kept boys are lucky enough to find a number of rich foreign tourists who are attractive enough to them as partners to keep on a rotating basis- they may have half a dozen or so or more on a string, and visit them as they have their vacations. They get LOADS of money from these guys, too, as each foolishly believes himself to be the only one.

Now, the tricky part happens when THESE guys want a REAL boyfriend- they won't need money- they won't ask for money- they'll probably even pay for you, pick up the tab, anything!

Sounds like heaven until they have to go on a sudden "trip" for a few WEEKS, or aren't there on Valentine's day for no special reason, or mysteriously disappear because Daddy Moneybags has summoned them to Switzerland.

How do you know if you're dating a "kept boy?"
1. No visible means of support, but obviously has money- sends money home, has own apt., mb accessories, stereo, TV, the works
2. Will often claim to be "in the closet" and use this as an excuse not to be seen with you where/when it may compromise him, like the usual normal gay bars
3. Often absent on short/long trips "to the country," but you're not allowed to meet the family (see #2).
4. Gets angry or evasive when you finally start to raise the issue of where the money comes from

How do I know these things? Been there, done that!

Good luck....
[I'm only a LITTLE bitter!]

"Steven"

Mugging By Blind Date Pretender

A good friend of mine was recently held up at gunpoint at an apartment building on upper Sukhumvit when he went to meet someone who was a supposed date. The "date" had contacted him through a Gaydar profile. When my friend, who was a tourist, arrived and went to the "date"'s room, another man was waiting with him. They drew a gun, cuffed my friend, and went through his wallet, removing the cash and credit cards. Then they brought my friend out to the main road, gave him 100B and told him to get in a taxi quietly.

My friend contacted the Thai police immediately and filed a complaint, and went back with them to the apartment building but the room was empty and the manager had no idea about who the two men were or how to contact them. My friend was also less than impressed with the attitude of the police.

Of course, my friend was a little unwise in arranging a first meeting with a stranger in a private place, and in bringing any unnecessary valuables to that meeting. It only goes to show that there are reasons for taking precautions over the internet; thank goodness he wasn't hurt. Let this be a warning to the rest of us- be careful and use common sense out there.

"Steven"

Loving Thai Boy, so cute in his college uniform

I made my first false break with B. around Songkran, when it became clear to me that he was lying about his income and unwilling, no matter how softly, softly I tried to convince him to talk to me about his life, to tell me the truth. A week or so later of calls every day crying and begging for me to reconsider, I told him that he would have to get a normal (i.e., non-bar-related) job where I could go and see him working if he wanted to keep dating me (incidentally, I recommend this for all those who have potentially dodgy partners).

He was reluctant, but agreed to do so without a time frame. Internally, I was giving him about 3 months before I would unilaterally give up on him completely. Of course, this affected our relationship negatively in almost every area. We were having more arguments and he was more moody.

However, he seemed to step up to bat. He had employment photos and copies of his high school papers made, and frequently went off to interview wearing his college uniform. He had his heart set on a job with Major Cineplex, because he loves movies, but he only made it to the second interview with them- he thinks he was not "cute" enough by their standards [it's true that most of the gay guys working there are more fem than B.; maybe that's what he meant].

At the same time, other areas of my life improved and I moved to a more convenient place in town- so convenient, in fact, that B. was over every other day. And then every day- and then he was keeping clothes in my closet. By midsummer [in the western sense] he was practically living with me, though still paying rent in his other room. The job hunting had virtually stopped, however, and I was steeling myself to leave him because it seemed to be only a matter of time. I dreaded it, though, because in one sense it was a dream fulfilled- a lovely, attractive guy living with me who loved me and genuinely found me attractive [his picture collection is full of images of men like me] and who, even though for fishy reasons, wasn't asking me to support his life.

I've seen what happens, however, when farang fail to set reasonable limits on their boundaries and what they'll put up with from their Thai partners. You wind up with the farang who has a Thai boyfriend who is married with kids, and also has a Thai boyfriend. All living together (sometimes without the farang!) in the house the farang bought, built, and paid for. I was not going to be that farang.

Fortunately, rather than leave me dithering and wondering whether to follow through with the ultimatum on the basis of no more evidence than just because, B. finally gave me every reason to dump him.

To be continued!

"Steven"

Cruising and Thai Wait Staff At Restaurants

Restaurants are great places for cruising in Thailand. Actually, that may be half the point for some of the workers- find someone tolerably good looking with a bit of money to throw around and give up the drudgery.

Heard a story from a friend- he was at some place near Silom and asked the obviously gay, cute waiter out- the waiter didn't have a phone but called the guy later- 1st question: will you buy me a mobile phone? that was the end of that. but next time the guy went to the restaurant, the waiter gave HIM his new mobile phone number... sometimes pie in the sky DOES come for these guys...

"Steven"

Sadly, in Thailand, there are almost no relationships that do not have a financial component

Sadly, in Thailand, there are almost no relationships that do not have a financial component of SOME kind that is more actively realized than in "Western" countries. I've been told by straight guys (level ones with jobs and wives who've decided to live here, not barflies) that Thais love, but there's always a practical side to it- in an almost Victorian sense. That doesn't mean that there won't be guys who love you for you, but there will always be at least a little tiny bit of awareness that you have so much more money than they do, and in the Thai way of thinking this obliges you, patron-style. You could think of it as you being a father figure.

That said, there's a bit of difference between patronage and milking. An average salary in Bangkok is 4-6000 BAHT a month for a 10hr a day, 6 day a week job. You can judge the sincerity of requests for 25K a month by this, right?

Real Thais who work and have real jobs have little time or money to hang out in bars for any reason. If they do go, it's typically to all-Thai bars with small groups of friends who stand around a table dancing and drinking together- a hard social milieu for farang to break into, though it can happen. I recommend Dreaded Ned's website (do a google search) for detailed maps of gay Bangkok to locate bars of this sort.

so here's the deal: A real Thai with a real life is possible to find, but he will have little time to hang out with you and you'll need to bear the shared costs of any expensive nightlife. An idle Thai with plenty of free time for you and/or money is almost always dodgy in some way (where does the money come from? how does he have all this time to spend in bars?) or rich, which is often worse. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Good luck!

"Steven"

Thai lying on via internet meeting rooms and older falang lying too

Considering the amount of Thai lying that goes on via internet meeting rooms (and everywhere else), it's hard to be too surprised or that older farang guys are lying, too. Half the Thai profiles on the major internet gay rooms are obvious hookers. Then again, meeting people live doesn't always result in much greater honesty- I guess no matter what, people should be careful where and how they meet people for dating!

The last guy I met online complained to me, too, about the number of Internet farang liars and scum he met... it was 3 weeks later that he admitted he already had a longterm boyfriend!!! So much for being straightforward and honest!

"Steven"

How Dodgy Is My Candidate?

Ok, here are the things I *know* to be true about him:

1. He is an art student at Silpakorn, and fairly good (has gotten pieces of his that I've seen into magazines and suchlike).
2. He speaks English suspiciously well (has an electronic dictionary).
3. He does not seem to have a lot of free cash (rides the bus, few extravagant spending habits that I've seen).
4. He's very bright- not only in English and art, but also in computers and a certain amount of philosophy.
5. He has a personal computer (compaq laptop).
6. He has been to Korea and dated at least one gay man there.
7. He has won several art awards (I've seen portfolio including award presentations).
8. He has worked for both a marketing agency and a pottery export company doing art for pay.
9. He has a number of pairs of shoes, some of which look fairly expensive.
10. He has a small number of tasteful clothes, but rather a variety of kinda provocative underwear.
11. In a bit of a financial bind recently, he sold his mobile phone to pay his rent and refused to take my 1-month offer of help.
12. He has obviously had quite a lot of experience with farangs- fair enough, I've been dating Thais, myself.
13. He freely admits to going to gay bars where farang often go; for example, DJ station- however he also goes to all-Thai gay bars with his friends.
14. I do all the paying for dates (he's a STUDENT, for gosh sakes), but he doesn't ask for other money and seems embarrassed quite often when I pay. He always makes sure to thank me for anything I've paid for.
15. When he's with me he seems more and more affectionate- not suddenly declaring his undying love, but measuring me just as I am measuring him.

Here are things he has TOLD me but for which I have no direct confirmation:
1. He is from Isaan and has a poor family.
2. He has an "aunt" married to a Korean man, which explains his trip to Korea and while he was there he earned the money for the computer by cleaning a restaurant for a few months
3. He's been at school funded partially by an uncle, partially by the Korean married aunt, partially by his brother, and partially by government funding (but overall has little spare money).
4. He's had a stingy Spanish boyfriend whom he is now considering breaking up with in my favor- claims the guy never even took him out to a movie or anything else but soi food.
5. He lives with a few other students in a typical student-block room near his university, but spends a lot of his time working and painting (I can confirm this anytime, 'cause he's not shy or paranoid about my visiting him in his home or at the studio- just haven't had time to go yet)

Now, the money and farang experience and the poverty all perhaps don't QUITE add up- but on the other hand, he's not apparently out to milk all farang for all he can get, either, and I think the feeling side of things is real; I'm convinced at the very least there's already a real friendship beginning to operate. Physically, things started slow but are getting hotter.

So, how sincere do you think this guy is? I'm trying to believe in him as much as I can, but it's in light of a recent relationship which went sour despite my ex-'s honest affection for me, because I found out about the other 3-4 guys bankrolling him (the ex). What do you recommend?

"Steven"

Living with a Thai Boy

O. survived a move with me, but 3 months after my ultimatum (this would be May of last year) he still showed no sign of getting a real job. He would hem and haw and mentioned that he was "taking care of his professor's dog," which really didn't sit up there on the top shelf of "Lame Excuses I Have Believed."

I was away for awhile on business. When I returned, O. was still the same. No money, but living expensively- how was he doing it?

In a taxi one afternoon I looked through his wallet out of curiosity, only to be surprised by the photo of another farang man- a bit older and larger than I am. O. blustered, then got defensive, then got angry. I refused to see him for a few days.

One day we went to check email together at an Internet cafe. I demanded to see his email suddenly. He seemed a bit apprehensive, for good reason: in his inbox was an email dated during my business trip:

"Dear O., I just wanted to thank you for a wonderful evening. I hope your hangover was not too bad. If you want to contact me after (date), please use (email address). Signed, (European Farang).

This also did not help. My suspicions were heightened to the point where I was looking for any way to get true information about O., so that I could make a well-justified decision about whether to stay with him or not. I knew that things were fishy as Heck, but I didn't like the thought of leaving him for the sake of suspicion only. And boy, did I get my chance.

It bears mentioning that all during this dodgy period, O. had been hinting that he would like me to help him financially (I had not been doing so) because if he ran out of money he might have to go back to Isaan. I kept asking when he was going to get a job.

Near the beginning of the new school year, O. claimed to have less than 5000B left to his name. It also happened that O. contracted a throat infection- a very, very bad throat infection. I nursed him for a day or two, and the infection got worse. I realized he really needed to see a doctor, but being a stubborn country lad he refused to go. Finally, after about 5 days of fevers and grouchiness, he admitted he was really sick. Just going to the road to catch a taxi for the hospital he threw up from the pain. I was exhausted from staying up looking after him and frightened about how sick he was, but glad to see him on the way to real medical care.

At that time, I had just gone through a very expensive month- I had moved and paid a big deposit on a new apartment, along with some other expenses- and my cash was low (actually, I probably only had 5-6000B in the bank, which I needed to last 8-9 days until the next payday). It occurred to me I would have to pay for O.'s hospital bills, and that I might even have to borrow money if he needed to stay for very long.

The hospital checked him in efficiently and quickly, and I was off to work. I called O.'s mobile a few times during the day but he didn't answer; probably he was asleep or heavily drugged.

When I returned home, I noticed the familiar bulge of O.'s wallet lying on his last pair of jeans on the floor- he hadn't used it or needed it since I had been taking care of him in his illness. Driven by some devil or angel, I opened it and found:

1. Pictures of 3 foreign men, including the one which I had previously seen.
2. Debit card receipts from the previous week in bars and restaurants totalling over 5000B in food and drink.
3. Records of appointments at a very expensive skincare spa
4. Phone numbers in other men's handwriting, including brief messages like "back on 3/5/05"
5. An ATM receipt from his bank account showing an outstanding balance of over 70,000B

"Steven"

My young Thai Boy

Sometime about November of last year, I met a young fellow, whom I'll call O.

He's changed my life 3 times so far, and I'd like to write more about him.

I went to an afternoon lunch of my gay friends on Gay Pride Day. Some of my friends' friends from Europe were in town, and they had brought along a young Thai fellow, O. O was shortish and slight, with an unfortunate mop of "Herman Munster" style hair [which is apparently popular with the senior uni students these days]. His complexion was not terribly good- still suffering from adolescent hormonal afflictions- but his broad smile and open expression were appealing. He was pretty quiet during our lunch, and what he did say was directed towards the Thai boyfriend of one of my friends there. I assumed he was the date of one of the Dutch gentlemen next to him, and so I went into automatic "no-flirting" mode with him. However, as the day went on, including an afternoon rowing in Lumphini Park before the actual parade [which, unfortunately, I felt was extremely poorly organized and insipid this year], I was convinced he was flirting with me.

While flattering, I despise it when acquaintances' dates show inappropriate interest in me- I think it is only polite for people to maintain the facade of happy couplehood in public, whatever one's relationship arrangements are. I did sneak a glance at him when he removed his shirt in Lumphini to cool off after rowing- attractive, muscular, light colored skin offsetting his jet black hair.

After the parade some of us wandered off to a fancy tourist restaurant for dinner, considerately paid for by our Dutch visitors. O was positioned next to me, and I began to suspect a bit of collusion... confirmed later by SMS messages from my good friend asking me if I was interested, because O had no boyfriend [he explained the Dutch man was a former/intermittent dating interest for O, but only as a tourist- and both he and O wanted O to find a regular partner]. My friend's Thai boyfriend had also known O for a year or so, and could vouch for him as a "real" type. Would I like them to set me up for a date? You betcha!

Young Thai Boys Love The Older Falang Man ... and give the old man money

Don't want to be beating a dead horse, but thought I'd mention that I know of at least one 60-something yo who's been offered money by 20-something yo Thais to go with them when he wasn't particularly interested in doing it for fun. That's right, the younger Thais offered the older farang money.

Young Thais aren't all poor. Old guys aren't universally undesirable. And I think anyone who wants to tell someone who's THIRTY that they know his interests better than he does should go ahead and try- yeah- go out to some of these bars where you'll see a 30yo Thai sitting with his 50yo boyfriend, and TELL the Thai he shouldn't be dating such an old guy. Do it in the nasty condescending way you like to do it here, where you feel safe 'cause you're anonymous cowards. I just hope I'm there to see the aftermath.

As a "punch"line, I've been told by Thais in their early twenties that I'm just not old enough yet.

"Steven"

Domesticity And Gay Life, Stay-At-Home

As time passes, I appreciate more and more the value of a comfortable home that I can relax in with a family- a gay partner and close friends, at least, if adoption doesn't become an option.

I find I am the type to stay home and enjoy it, when I've found a good long-term partner. Or even by myself, I don't feel the need to be out on the town every night that it is possible.

I know other friends who just can't seem to stay home at all- if they've got a free night with no other plans, they will wind up in a bar or disco somewhere.

I've known Thais and foreigners on both extremes of this spectrum

Gay Love Video