Thai culture of Denial - the Reality

I think the Thais have a culture of denial. It is not simply hypocrisy or two-facedness, which is common in many countries- if there is some negative attribute which they wish to hide, they seem compelled not only to cover it up but to STRONGLY, VOCALLY deny it. This goes for so-called "Thai values" as well as individual character. For example, [I tried to put these on the same lines in a parallel fashion but this darn editor keeps deleting the formatting spaces I put in!]

THAI VALUES:
Thais are sexually conservative.
Thais are socially conservative.
Thais are calm and cool.

REALITIES:
Everone screws like rabbits.
Everyone has affairs.
Thais have terribly emotional storms.

PERSONAL STATEMENTS
I don't have many dates.
I don't go there.
I'm not materialistic.
Up to you!
I don't tell you lies!

REALITIES
I'm a slut.
It's my favorite place.
Show me the money!
I want it my way!
I'm a pathological liar!


Time after time, when I examine what my Thai friends/acquaintances take so much trouble to deny, I find the truth by reversing their denials. It's a technique I recommend, somewhat cynically.

"Steven"

Understanding Your Thai Bf/Gf - The dishonesty thing seems endemic to Thailand

I've been living here for a few years, and I was a tourist previously. It's a whole different ball game living and working here, and you learn a lot- some things you might not really want to know.

The age difference is not by itself an issue- because a lot of the guys here are REALLY looking for someone older (I've been told several times I'm too young!) But it does mean that personality, expectations, etc. are different. And if you expect anyone under 25 in Thailand to be monogamous you're just fooling yourself.

The dishonesty thing seems endemic to Thailand- I'm not afraid to say it. They don't LOOK at it as lying, and there are a lot of "cultural coping mechanisms" to disguise it from themselves as lying, but basically, it's lying. The best ones will merely try hard to avoid expressing things they'd rather not express, and if you read between the lines to see what they're saying and don't pressure them to lose face, you can get the information you want without upsetting anyone.

For example, I started dating a guy recently and I almost immediately realized there was a financial problem- the guy had more money than he should have for his occupation/age. I approached it somewhat indirectly (after I saw he had the compaq portable computer!) and told him there were some things I would have to know about him if we were going to get serious, and did he mind if we discussed them- and he replied that it would be better if we didn't talk about those things- which gave me my answer and avoided any direct embarrassment. We're still friends and still date, but I don't let myself get too serious with him, and I'm grateful for his relative "honesty."

I've heard some amazing stories here, though, and there are both real stinkers and real angels out there.

"Steven"

Discrimination of Fat People

Something I find offensive to a great degree on Internet forums about Thailand and in writing on Thailand in general is this continuing reference to the fatness of _insert_group_to_be_insulted_here_. Usually comments are made in the genre of "it's disgusting how those fat Germans/queers/old men/farang women hang out with those young, slim, cutey beauties," etc., etc.

I find these comments hypocritical, immature, and ignorant to a high degree, assuming a number of contradictory things about the [fat-hating] speaker's position in Thailand and the position of the overweight visitor/resident in Thailand. I think these comments are also more insensitive among gay men, who have to worry about their appearance a lot more typically than straight men.

Assumption #1: FAT PEOPLE ARE UNDESIRABLE COMPARED TO THE SPEAKER

Contradictory to the assumptions of many immature individuals, larger (and older) persons are desired by a number of young men not only in Asia but also other countries of the world. There are whole bars devoted to this pursuit in the main cities of Japan [not to mention about half of the gay mags], and any larger person who's lived in Asia any length of time will have his admirers (often more than he can peacefully cope with!) Personally speaking, I've dated guys in every country I've ever lived in who had appreciation for, let us say, a man with something to him. I wouldn't have it any other way- I won't date guys I'm not sure are attracted to me (a good way to tell: check out his movie collection or porn, if any- lots of big guys? You know he's for real- one of the last guys I dated would go to any John Goodman movie that came out).

So, not only is the fat person NOT undesirable to this larg-ish group of chubby-chasing people, but they wouldn't give a second look to some skinny, middle-sized pretender.

Assumption #2: FAT PEOPLE MUST BE PAYING- HOW ELSE COULD THEY GET ANY?

Having demonstrated that we DO have a bit of a market, I hope it's obvious how this assumption is wrong. However, it displays a bit of additional arrogance and hubris on the part of the speaker- who seems to think that his being slender means he WON'T pay for sex- a common mistake on the part of those without much experience here. "I'm such a handsum handsum man that even the hookers won't charge me." This may happen- but very, very rarely.

I got very angry reading Cleo Odzer's book about prostitution in Patpong, for instance, because she seemed to imply that something was so "wrong" about the relative differential in beauty [judged by her] between the tourists and bargirls she saw, while she was engaged in the very same types of behavior [but it was "ok," because she was slim, blond and "beautiful."]

Assumption #3: FAT PEOPLE ARE INHERENTLY UNDESIRABLE AND THEREFORE DISGUSTING

Not to lots of folks! However, this is the feeling that comes through many posts referring to the weight of people. Aside from lacking the simple maturity of the realization that "there's someone for everyone" [and thank god for that], this is offensive and wrong. I think it comes from being hypnotized by Hollywood's message about what people should "look like" in movies and commercials. Ever noticed how the people Thai folks think are attractive (the "types" in movies that get repeated over and over) don't match with the kind of Thais that farang like? Ever wonder about how this might work in reverse? If not, perhaps you need a bit of deprogramming from Hollywood.

Anyway, just a starting point for discussion, and if nothing else, perhaps I'll have given some folks a reason to think twice before using "fat" as a generically negative classification.

Disclaimer: I'm a pretty big guy- tall, and I definitely qualify as fat, though I'm still fit enough to jog for half an hour or cycle a fair distance. Have always been, no matter how much exercise I did or how I tried to control my diet. I don't have trouble fitting into Thai chairs, but I'd never be able to fit into Thai clothes!

Frankly, my ex-bf always wished I was much bigger!

"Steven"

Filipinos are even more emotional and unrestrained than Thais

I've known a number of Filipino gays and had a Filipino bf for a few years. There are MANY, MANY gays there- I'd say it's on the same order of frequency as in Thailand if not more. The Catholic repression is there, as Cathy says, but it doesn't seem to stop 'em.

In the big cities, the gay subculture is (fairly) obvious to those who are looking... in the smaller towns, there aren't any gay bars or locations, but it's not hard to tell if someone's interested in you, and just as in Thailand, they're not going to start a fight if there's a misunderstanding.
Personality-wise, I'd say that Filipinos are even more emotional and unrestrained than Thais (compared, of course, to Americans). Filipino guys are generally very warm and emotionally open, but also jealous and moody at times.

Physically, Filipino men are stockier and broader-built than Thais, on average.

Of course, these are all generalities, but what more can you do when speaking of entire populations?

If you want more info, feel free to ask more specific questions.

"Steven"

Living with a Thai Boy - My Experience

The first big crack in the relationship was Valentine's Day. He gave me some big lie about how he had to spend the evening with his friends because he'd already promised some time back (really? like over three months when we became boyfriends?) he'd have dinner with them. I wasn't buying it- 'cause I knew how important these romantic holidays are to the Thais, even the Western ones.

He DID come by in the morning and give me a nice framed photo of himself and some flowers, but it wasn't enough- I wanted his presence- and in the evening (which I spent alone at home in my apartment, far outside the Bangkok city limits) I couldn't reach him on his cellphone- it mysteriously malfunctioned [he later claimed battery failure] which it had a tendency to do when convenient for him.

Speaking of the mobile phones, they evolved considerably while I was dating him. He started off with a fairly expensive-looking Nokia model with a color screen and a slightly musical tone. Suddenly, one day he showed up with one of the top-of-the-line Panasonic phones (the big console-looking ones with built-in camera that can even do E-banking for you securely). How did he get the money (probably about 20,000B) for this? "I have a friend working at a store so I got a discount." Wrong answer!

To make matters worse, during this period he ALSO picked up a portable CD player to the tune of 10,000B including fancy rechargeable battery system, and fancy 3000B headphones. Finally, he LOST the expensive phone (left it in a cab)! So he got yet ANOTHER phone, to the tune of 8000K. Just one month later his friend broke that one, and he showed up with yet ANOTHER phone (with built-in camera again) that probably cost about 8000K.

As if all that weren't fishy enough, I noticed the following expenses, which he made no effort to hide from me:

1-2000B a month sent home to mother
500B a month life insurance policy (payable to mother)
Shares in TWO apartments running about 4-5000B a month
Expensive habits, like riding in taxis and eating out, seeing movies in theatres with his friends, drinking at bars (where he kept bottles in his name), etc.
Frequent purchase of trendy clothes and accessories- seemed for awhile like every day he had something new from MBK.

After a bit of calculation, I finally figured that he was spending over 50-60K a month during the time that I knew him (more than my salary!!!) And yet he was an unemployed student.... right.

Eventually, even my friends noticed that he was too rich to be telling the truth. Even the nice Thai man who introduced us told me he thought something was wrong- probably that O. was getting income from other farang. I knew I couldn't let things go on like this.

Why not? some may ask. Why not live in style on the money of a fairly well-off kept boy boyfriend who costs me little/nothing and even buys things for me? Why rock the boat?

The reason is O's first change in my life- I was truly, deeply falling in love with him, more so than I had ever been with any other partner. How was I going to feel if Mr. Moneybags from Switzerland showed up one day demanding that my cutie run off with him for years or forever? Emotionally, this was a losing proposition, and I had to find the truth or give him up.

"Steven"

I don't pay for the Thai Bf's Thai Wife and the Thai Bf's ThaiBf

One of the saddest types of stories I've heard from my friends here is about the couple which consisted of:

the farang
and his gay Thai boyfriend
and the Thai boyfriend's Thai wife
and the Thai boyfriend's Thai boyfriend

all living in the house which Jack built (but the boyfriend owns).

I tell every new boyfriend candidate (after a suitable period of time) this story, and emphasize to them that *I* will not be in the role of that farang. So far, the one guy who became my "official" boyfriend for awhile (my ex) didn't believe me [eventually found out he had 2 or 3 other farang plus maybe a Thai bf and one or two Thai girlfriends, too]. I added him to the story of what I don't put up with in serious boyfriends, for the benefit of future candidates. Remains to be seen if any of these candidates will understand I am serious from the start!!!


"Steven"

How To Avoid Questionable Characters While Dating Gay Guys In Thailand

How To Avoid Questionable Characters While Dating Gay Guys In Thailand

A Mostly Common Sense Approach

Meeting People

1. Stay out of the gogo bars.
This one should be pretty obvious. It's not impossible that you might meet a "real" boyfriend in a gogo bar, but it might as well be.

2. Stay out of Soi 4; oh heck, stay away from Silom/Suriwong/Patpong entirely.
Once again, why screw up your odds? Yes, there are some nice/real people going to Silom and so forth, including of course you, my gentle reader- but really....

3. Stay out of gay bars in general.
Excluding present company, I'm afraid that simply being in a gay bar in Thailand is unusual and rare for many real gay guys- they don't have the time or the money, or they want to avoid stigma.

4. Do not use Internet chat rooms or personals sites.
There are far too many butterflies, MBs, "students," "kept" types, and crazies on these sites to make them good places for finding a "real" candidate.

5. Do not consider people you meet in saunas or parks serious candidates.
Another obvious one. People don't go to saunas and parks looking for serious connections with others.

6. Do not consider students serious candidates.
Even though they're cute, even though they're young, even though they're horny and they love you- they're just not worth the trouble. No money, uncertain future, and difficult to track.

7. Do not consider the unemployed serious candidates.
Another obvious one. Anyone who is unemployed in Thailand needs a good explanation of how they manage to stay alive (or at least how they did before you started taking care of them). Why add to the list of troubles for yourself?

8. DO keep your eyes open in public for those who looking at you with interest.
There are many very friendly and lovely gay guys all around who will readily indicate interest in you. Yes, even you, with your pot belly and grandfatherly look- that's what some of them like. Learn to notice and respond to these signals- look around when you're on the train, on the street (except Silom), in malls, at grocery stores.

9. DO chat and be friendly with attractive people who are obviously already working.
Some Thais are quite shy. If they are cute and seem gay, why not try to take the initiative? And if they're working somewhere that you're shopping or have business, you have a perfect excuse for the interaction- and you know they have a job.

10. DO ask your Thai friends to introduce you to nice people.
You *do* have Thai friends, right? Get them to help you out- but in this case, beware of your responsibility. You don't want your friend to lose face if you turn out to be a jerk.

11. DO make Thai friends.
This is sort of a prerequisite to number 10. Not all gays that you contact will be interested in you that way- and you can only have one boyfriend, anyway. Keep some of the rest as friends.

12. DO go to gay-attractive events such as film events, art exhibitions, and the performing arts.
Another place to find like-minded people with enough money and leisure for taste.

13. DO try to meet Thai university teachers/workers (not students).
This solves the education/job/intelligence side of the equation from the start.

14. DO consider Thai-Chinese partners if you can.
While not to everyone's taste, and bringing along with them certain stereotypical weaknesses, all signs point to their being among the best choice for stable relationships between foreigners and Thai nationals.

"Steven"

Me: "R., why are you washing dishes?"

One evening I was visiting a lovely older British friend of mine for his birthday party. He had a new Thai bf at the time. As the party wound down and everyone left, it became obvious it was time for cleanup- and my friend started cleaning up the place.

Me: "R., why are you washing dishes?"
R.: "You know, that's a very good question."
Me: "Sit down."

At which point *I* started cleaning up the place. It was another 10 minutes or so before I think R.'s bf realized that he shouldn't have been letting R. do the work, and he rushed over and took *my* place at dishwashing. I don't know if that's any clear sign or not of how things stand in a relationship, but soon afterwards the two of them broke up.